Posted by Kromey at 2:27am Jun 30 '12seems to me that the link, if any, between loosening gun laws and decreasing violent crime does not look good for the gun-rights people. so can we please put this to rest, and stop pretending that guns make crime go away?
Not even going to respond to this, except to quote my own OP:
So, really, what's the takeaway here? That more guns means less crime? Well, the last twenty years certainly lends some credence to that, and some -- such as John Lott -- have indeed made that argument; that's not my argument, however. In fact, despite owning a copy of Lott's book, I remain unconvinced that there's a causal relationship either way (although maybe I'll change my mind when I, you know, read his book -- maybe). Rather, my point is to quite simply debunk the myth that more guns, and/or less gun control, means more crime -- it quite simply is not true.
In other words, you've presented a textbook example of a strawman argument, in fact one that I explicitly said wasn't being made!
what metric are you using?
Less than 0.1% of all guns in the US will ever be used to commit a crime in their (quite lengthy) lifetime. (That's another ATF stat, by the way!)
but what if we're only talking about guns acquired or owned illegally?
Why would we be? I fail to see the relevance.
does that mean you don't think criminal possession is a problem worth worrying about, or attempting to do something about?
Where did you get such a totally ridiculous notion? No, seriously, where in the hell did this even come from?? In all honesty, it looks like you're trying every which way you can think of -- and when you quickly ran out of even remotely reasonable ones you just kept going anyway -- to try and discredit me. It's barely worth even responding -- except that it highlights your style of anti-gun "argument" so beautifully...
in all other cases, an innocent person without a firearm is safer than an innocent person with one.
Really? Hm... so an Alaskan King Crab fisherman, the world's deadliest job, is safer than a person simply holding a gun?
It'd be foolish to say that guns are completely safe -- so it's a good thing no one's making that claim. It would be even more foolish, however, to completely ignore the CDC's stats on accidental gun injuries and deaths, which clearly show a steady decline despite more and more guns being privately owned.
Not even going to respond to this, except to quote my own OP:
So, really, what's the takeaway here? That more guns means less crime? Well, the last twenty years certainly lends some credence to that, and some -- such as John Lott -- have indeed made that argument; that's not my argument, however. In fact, despite owning a copy of Lott's book, I remain unconvinced that there's a causal relationship either way (although maybe I'll change my mind when I, you know, read his book -- maybe). Rather, my point is to quite simply debunk the myth that more guns, and/or less gun control, means more crime -- it quite simply is not true.
In other words, you've presented a textbook example of a strawman argument, in fact one that I explicitly said wasn't being made!
what metric are you using?
Less than 0.1% of all guns in the US will ever be used to commit a crime in their (quite lengthy) lifetime. (That's another ATF stat, by the way!)
but what if we're only talking about guns acquired or owned illegally?
Why would we be? I fail to see the relevance.
does that mean you don't think criminal possession is a problem worth worrying about, or attempting to do something about?
Where did you get such a totally ridiculous notion? No, seriously, where in the hell did this even come from?? In all honesty, it looks like you're trying every which way you can think of -- and when you quickly ran out of even remotely reasonable ones you just kept going anyway -- to try and discredit me. It's barely worth even responding -- except that it highlights your style of anti-gun "argument" so beautifully...
in all other cases, an innocent person without a firearm is safer than an innocent person with one.
Really? Hm... so an Alaskan King Crab fisherman, the world's deadliest job, is safer than a person simply holding a gun?
It'd be foolish to say that guns are completely safe -- so it's a good thing no one's making that claim. It would be even more foolish, however, to completely ignore the CDC's stats on accidental gun injuries and deaths, which clearly show a steady decline despite more and more guns being privately owned.
Re: it's a pretty picture, yes - Kromey