Posted by blood roses at 7:19pm Aug 12 '11Fair warning - if you haven't read George RR [private]'s a Dance with Dragons and you don't want to be spoiled for it, don't read this thread. If you watch the HBO series Game of Thrones but haven't read the books it's based on, do not read this thread - the show follows the books quite closely so far so being spoiled on the books will definitely spoil you on the show.
My thoughts are below (warning - I have a lot of them!)
I'm about 2/3 of the way through a re-read, I read through so fast the first time that I feel like I missed things and didn't have the chance to really appreciate the writing. So I'm reading it again and it is even better the second time.
Specific thoughts, starting with my favorites and moving down...
Theon was by far my favourite part of the book. I've always considered Theon to be a tragic character. All he ever wanted was for somebody to pat him on the shoulder and tell him they were proud of him. He never got that from Ned, who held him at arms length as a hostage he may one day have to kill, so he tried to get it from his biological father. And... we all saw how that ended. So to see him so... broken, just broke my heart. (I also feel a little like [private] saw people complaining about how the villains didn't get what the fans thought they deserved and was being like: "Alright, I'll give Theon what you think he deserves. How do you like that?" And we were kind of forced to confront our own bloodthirstiness by reading all the unpleasant details. Anyway). And then his redemption when he helped save Jeyne, and reclaiming the name Theon, and reuniting with Asha! Loved.
Then throw in Asha (I totally thought Asha would be the girl on the grey horse riding to the wall to escape her marriage, btw, and was disappointed in Alys Karstark coming out of nowhere, but anyway) and Davos and you get the whole story of the north, and it was just brilliant. The way the Starks were just the [private] and the background of the whole story even though none of them were even present in it. And the way that winter was just the focus of the story, and all the lords fucking around with their game of thrones when winter is the real enemy here. Just brilliant. My only gripe was no resolution (I'll believe Stannis is dead and defeated when I see the body...) I know it's one of the middle books of a series, but it's still a book, and there should be some resolution to story arcs. Did you catch the Rat King references? I tooootally didn't, and was so confused by Manderly and the pie. I thought it was poisoned and Manderly was going to sacrifice himself to save his son, and then it wasn't, and I was like wtf is up with the pie? Haha. Intrigued to see Davos going after Rickon, I kind of thought when there was no 5 year jump we may never see Rickon again.
I really enjoyed Bran also and I'm disappointed that his story got dropped in the middle. I've always seen Bran as the Jesus figure, I always figured he'd end up sacrificing himself to save humanity in some way... I figured it would be dying but it looks like instead it will just be giving up everything about his life and his future. Which is just as tragic... he wanted to be a knight... :(
Jon... oh Jon. His first and biggest mistake was in sending away both Sam and Aemon. He needed an advisor. Somebody who he could trust. Somebody who could tell him that yes, he was right, but it wasn't enough to just command, he had convince his men to accept his decisions. He got so frustrated that nobody made an effort to understand the wildlings the way he did, but he didn't make an effort to understand his people. They'd devoted their whole lives to protecting the realm from the wildlings and Jon just says: "No, they're our allies now" and his men are just supposed to accept that? He needed to pick his battles too... reforming the class system at the Wall was something that maybe could have waited until people were more comfortable with the other changes he was making. Too much change at once. And then when he got that letter from Ramsay... good lord Jon. Could he really not see that riding off toconquer the north rescue his sister at the head of an army of wildlings was the very worst thing he could possibly have done? Ever since he let the wildings past the wall, his men have been afraid they'd ride off and conquer the realm. This is their biggest fear, the one they've been brooding over for weeks and months. And then not only do they ride off to do exactly that pretty much as soon as Jon closes the gates, they're being led by the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch??? And then throw in the fact that Jon is Ned Stark's son and his men don't know he turned down his father's Lordship and it kind of looks like maybe this has been his plan the whole time. Not at all surprsing that his men urned on him. Once again though, I'll believe he's dead when I see the body. Although people have pointed out that the red priests can bring people back to life, so there's that... it's also been pointed out that Melisandre saw him living as a man, then a wolf, than a man again, so maybe he'll live in Ghost for a while and then somehow come back in another body or something? I don't know how I feel about that though... I guess I'm really attached to the idea of him facing the Others as Lord Commander of the Nights' Watch. It just feels like where he's meant to be.
And then Dany... Dany and Jon are like a PSA on the dangers of letting 16 year olds take a position of power. No life experience and little common sense but too cocky to take advice. The first time I read the book, I was really frustrated and annoyed with Dany's story line. It seemed like nothing was happening. The second time when I was just enjoying the ride instead of frantically reading to find out what happened, I appreciated it more. Dany is in a difficult situation, it's understandable that she doesn't like or respect the former slave owners, but ruling over a people who she so actively despised didn't work out so well (another parallel with Jon who disrespected his men because of their classism and prejudice against the wildlings). And as for Quentyn, well, I kind of found it amusing that he came all that way just to get himself fried by a dragon. I know a lot of fans found the whole thing to be an annoying waste of time but what can I say... I have a weird sense of humour. Anyway it looks like Dany has at least figured out how to deal with her dragons, so hopefully next book will go a little better for her than this one.
Tyrion's story I was really frustrated with on the first read. The whole book to get him from Pentos to Mereen? Can we drag this out anymore? And then for him not even to meet up with Dany *headdesk*. But I enjoyed it more on the second read as well, particularly his relationship with Penny. I don't think Tyrion ever really realised before how much his birth protected him. As much as he despised himself, being a Lannister gave him some small amount of self-worth that Penny just didn't have. Other than that though, nothing too interesting there. As far as Aegon, if he is the real Aegon I will feel kind of cheated, because he just came out of absolutely nowhere, it just feels cheap. But there is some speculation that he's a fake (the "mummer's dragon" from one of Dany's visions), so depending who he turns out to be that could be more interesting.
Everything else I think was kind of out of place in this book. The first half was such a tight, focused story, and then bringing in all these other characters from the last book broke the focus. I enjoyed Cersei and Arya, but there's no reason their scenes couldn't have waited for the next book. Ditto for Jaime. The Dornish scenes might have fit better in the last book, where most of the Dornish story took place. And Asha and Theon are the only Greyjoys that have ever remotely interested me and that applies in this book too. I totally skimmed the Victarion chapters.
I think that's everything, at least for now :)
My thoughts are below (warning - I have a lot of them!)
I'm about 2/3 of the way through a re-read, I read through so fast the first time that I feel like I missed things and didn't have the chance to really appreciate the writing. So I'm reading it again and it is even better the second time.
Specific thoughts, starting with my favorites and moving down...
Theon was by far my favourite part of the book. I've always considered Theon to be a tragic character. All he ever wanted was for somebody to pat him on the shoulder and tell him they were proud of him. He never got that from Ned, who held him at arms length as a hostage he may one day have to kill, so he tried to get it from his biological father. And... we all saw how that ended. So to see him so... broken, just broke my heart. (I also feel a little like [private] saw people complaining about how the villains didn't get what the fans thought they deserved and was being like: "Alright, I'll give Theon what you think he deserves. How do you like that?" And we were kind of forced to confront our own bloodthirstiness by reading all the unpleasant details. Anyway). And then his redemption when he helped save Jeyne, and reclaiming the name Theon, and reuniting with Asha! Loved.
Then throw in Asha (I totally thought Asha would be the girl on the grey horse riding to the wall to escape her marriage, btw, and was disappointed in Alys Karstark coming out of nowhere, but anyway) and Davos and you get the whole story of the north, and it was just brilliant. The way the Starks were just the [private] and the background of the whole story even though none of them were even present in it. And the way that winter was just the focus of the story, and all the lords fucking around with their game of thrones when winter is the real enemy here. Just brilliant. My only gripe was no resolution (I'll believe Stannis is dead and defeated when I see the body...) I know it's one of the middle books of a series, but it's still a book, and there should be some resolution to story arcs. Did you catch the Rat King references? I tooootally didn't, and was so confused by Manderly and the pie. I thought it was poisoned and Manderly was going to sacrifice himself to save his son, and then it wasn't, and I was like wtf is up with the pie? Haha. Intrigued to see Davos going after Rickon, I kind of thought when there was no 5 year jump we may never see Rickon again.
I really enjoyed Bran also and I'm disappointed that his story got dropped in the middle. I've always seen Bran as the Jesus figure, I always figured he'd end up sacrificing himself to save humanity in some way... I figured it would be dying but it looks like instead it will just be giving up everything about his life and his future. Which is just as tragic... he wanted to be a knight... :(
Jon... oh Jon. His first and biggest mistake was in sending away both Sam and Aemon. He needed an advisor. Somebody who he could trust. Somebody who could tell him that yes, he was right, but it wasn't enough to just command, he had convince his men to accept his decisions. He got so frustrated that nobody made an effort to understand the wildlings the way he did, but he didn't make an effort to understand his people. They'd devoted their whole lives to protecting the realm from the wildlings and Jon just says: "No, they're our allies now" and his men are just supposed to accept that? He needed to pick his battles too... reforming the class system at the Wall was something that maybe could have waited until people were more comfortable with the other changes he was making. Too much change at once. And then when he got that letter from Ramsay... good lord Jon. Could he really not see that riding off to
And then Dany... Dany and Jon are like a PSA on the dangers of letting 16 year olds take a position of power. No life experience and little common sense but too cocky to take advice. The first time I read the book, I was really frustrated and annoyed with Dany's story line. It seemed like nothing was happening. The second time when I was just enjoying the ride instead of frantically reading to find out what happened, I appreciated it more. Dany is in a difficult situation, it's understandable that she doesn't like or respect the former slave owners, but ruling over a people who she so actively despised didn't work out so well (another parallel with Jon who disrespected his men because of their classism and prejudice against the wildlings). And as for Quentyn, well, I kind of found it amusing that he came all that way just to get himself fried by a dragon. I know a lot of fans found the whole thing to be an annoying waste of time but what can I say... I have a weird sense of humour. Anyway it looks like Dany has at least figured out how to deal with her dragons, so hopefully next book will go a little better for her than this one.
Tyrion's story I was really frustrated with on the first read. The whole book to get him from Pentos to Mereen? Can we drag this out anymore? And then for him not even to meet up with Dany *headdesk*. But I enjoyed it more on the second read as well, particularly his relationship with Penny. I don't think Tyrion ever really realised before how much his birth protected him. As much as he despised himself, being a Lannister gave him some small amount of self-worth that Penny just didn't have. Other than that though, nothing too interesting there. As far as Aegon, if he is the real Aegon I will feel kind of cheated, because he just came out of absolutely nowhere, it just feels cheap. But there is some speculation that he's a fake (the "mummer's dragon" from one of Dany's visions), so depending who he turns out to be that could be more interesting.
Everything else I think was kind of out of place in this book. The first half was such a tight, focused story, and then bringing in all these other characters from the last book broke the focus. I enjoyed Cersei and Arya, but there's no reason their scenes couldn't have waited for the next book. Ditto for Jaime. The Dornish scenes might have fit better in the last book, where most of the Dornish story took place. And Asha and Theon are the only Greyjoys that have ever remotely interested me and that applies in this book too. I totally skimmed the Victarion chapters.
I think that's everything, at least for now :)