Posted by shyla at 5:46am Nov 1 '04Calvanism Interview
by Darcy West
reprinted by permission
[private]: Adam had free will before he fell. Since then man's will is corrupted by indwelling sin.
Darcy West: [private], a Calvinist?
[private]: Just biblical, Darcy.
Darcy West: Do you admire the writings of John Calvin?
[private]: Yes, I agree with most.
Darcy West: I thought you might.
Darcy West: [private], so you do not believe that you have freewill?
[private]: No, I have a will, but it is not free.
Darcy West: Do you choose to love God or is that programmed into you?
[private]: I believe that God quickens the elect, and then we believe and choose Him. We are not able to do so of our own will.
Darcy West: So God programs you to love him. Hmmmm....
[private]: Either God does, or Sin does.
Darcy West: [private], "quicken" would be like putting the batteries into a [private]? Would you enjoy love from a doll that you programmed to say, "I love you"?
[private]: Please understand, Darcy, I am not trying to convince you or anyone in here. But you asked me, and I am trying to answer.
Darcy West: [private], not looking for convincing. Just curious about your beliefs. : )
[private]: Fair enough.
Darcy West: [private], by the way, I would like to use your responses, without your screen name, for a project I am working on. Do you object?
[private]: Not at all, they are readily available in The Owners Manual for all to use.
Darcy West: [private], ahhh. Wonderful. I will be posting responses, without screen names, on my website. Address is in my profile. Now what about that doll? If you programmed a doll to say, "I love you," could you convince yourself that the doll did indeed love you and would you find such "love" satisfying?
[private]: To answer, I must go back to why God created man in the first place.
Darcy West:You can't tell me whether YOU would be satisfied with the love of a doll you had programmed to say I love you without giving me what you believe is the history of God?
[private]: I am not God, Darcy. I can only answer by what scripture says.
Darcy West: Oh I didn't think you were God or even that you speak knowingly of him. I am just wondering if YOU would be satisfied with thelove of a doll that you had programmed to say, "I love you."
[private]: I know, but you want me to answer as God would in your mind.
Darcy West: Can you read my mind?
[private]: If I had the power to create a doll to love me, I would give it free will as God did to man.
Darcy West: Fair enough. And if that man disobeyed you, would you then curse all of his descendants?
[private]: Actually, man cursed his descendants, not God. It was man's choice.
Darcy West: Man cursed his descendants? Is man capable of bringing such a curse on his fellow man? If I say to you, "I curse you!" would those words have any real effect on your life?
[private]: Man allowed sin to enter mankind through the fruit. Again, that is what scripture says.
Darcy West: [private], who did the cursing though?
[private]: Sin is the accuser and deceiver. Not God.
Darcy West: According to scripture, didn't the words of the curse come from God himself? And surely the power of the curse did.
[private]: God told man that if he ate of the fruit he would surely die. God planted the tree, to honor man's free will. Man chose sin, and through it he cursed his descendants.
Darcy West: To think that man has the power to bring a curse on his fellow man sounds superstitious to me. Is this really what you believe?
[private]: Not in an outward way, but inwardly, we pass indwelling sin through our blood to offspring,
Darcy West: [private], really? Have scientists found it in the blood?
[private]: I simply say what scripture says.
Darcy West: You can only recite scripture? You can't think for yourself? I am asking you if you think God decided that because Adam had sinned, all of Adam's descendants would be afflicted with this blood disorder you spoke of? This contaminant? Or was God held to some standard that he had no control over?
[private]: Yes, I believe God decides all things.
Darcy West: So God decided that all of humankind would be guilty because of Adam's sin?
[private]: Yes. Because all sinned, Romans 5:12.
Darcy West: [private], you believe in eternal torment for those who fail to believe as you do, don't you?
[private]: I believe in eternal separation from God for those that are not His chosen, yes.
Darcy West: And you believe that only the elect can come to a saving knowledge of Christ?
[private]: Yes.
Darcy West: Would you approve of beating a blind man when the blind man failed to see?
[private]: Certainly not. However, in this case the man chose blindness to light.
Darcy West: If I am made without the ability to see....do I have a choice about whether or not I can see?
[private]: Darcy, those who are not elected have a will, but because they are not chosen, they have not the ability to choose God.
Darcy West: [private], exactly. So why would God endlessly torment them for not having what he alone can give them?
[private]: Mankind, in Adam already chose.
Darcy West If a teacher punished an entire class for the actions of one child and if the teacher then said, "This boy has cursed all of you because of his actions. I will now beat every child in the class and I will beat each of your children that is born and ever enters this class in the future," would that seem fair to you?
[private]: It is not my place to evaluate what is fair. I accept God's sovereignty.
Darcy West: You do not evaluate what is fair. Hmmmm. So, if the bible said that rape was good, would you believe that rape was good?
[private]: Ridiculous question.
Darcy West: If God told you to kill a child, would you do it?
[private]: I know of what you refer, but doesn't apply to saints today.
Darcy West: According to the scripture, God did command men to kill babies in the Old Testament times, so I: think it's a fair question.
[private]: He will not, so it is a moot point. We are not in Old Testament times, Darcy. You are wrongly dividing the word of truth.
Darcy West: [private], do you have a right to evaluate any of the actions of God?
[private]: No, I don't.
Darcy West: So if God told you to rape a woman, you would have no right to question that, would you? Can you think of anything more hateful than torturing someone forEVER?
[private]: I don't understand your questions, Darcy.
Darcy West: Let me rephrase. The question is: do you think it is wrong to torture someone forEVER?
[private]: It may be bad, or it may be just.
Darcy West: When would you ever think it was just or right to torment a person forever?
[private]: When God says it is. Is it just to remove punishment after justly given?
Darcy West: Isn't that exactly what you believe God is going to do with you? [private], if you made a person who had NO ability to see, why would you be angry at the person for failing to have what you alone could give him?
[private]: I am very sorry you can't understand God's ways Darcy. But you are not yet given to do so. Maybe someday you will be quickened. Until then you will continue in darkness.
Darcy West: [private], if being "quickened" means that I have to see cruelty as good, then I am glad that that will never happen to me. If being in the "light" means that I must become a thoughtless object, parroting words of praise to a sadistic monster, not because I love him but because he programmed me to say I did, then I would much prefer what you call darkness. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
by Darcy West
reprinted by permission
[private]: Adam had free will before he fell. Since then man's will is corrupted by indwelling sin.
Darcy West: [private], a Calvinist?
[private]: Just biblical, Darcy.
Darcy West: Do you admire the writings of John Calvin?
[private]: Yes, I agree with most.
Darcy West: I thought you might.
Darcy West: [private], so you do not believe that you have freewill?
[private]: No, I have a will, but it is not free.
Darcy West: Do you choose to love God or is that programmed into you?
[private]: I believe that God quickens the elect, and then we believe and choose Him. We are not able to do so of our own will.
Darcy West: So God programs you to love him. Hmmmm....
[private]: Either God does, or Sin does.
Darcy West: [private], "quicken" would be like putting the batteries into a [private]? Would you enjoy love from a doll that you programmed to say, "I love you"?
[private]: Please understand, Darcy, I am not trying to convince you or anyone in here. But you asked me, and I am trying to answer.
Darcy West: [private], not looking for convincing. Just curious about your beliefs. : )
[private]: Fair enough.
Darcy West: [private], by the way, I would like to use your responses, without your screen name, for a project I am working on. Do you object?
[private]: Not at all, they are readily available in The Owners Manual for all to use.
Darcy West: [private], ahhh. Wonderful. I will be posting responses, without screen names, on my website. Address is in my profile. Now what about that doll? If you programmed a doll to say, "I love you," could you convince yourself that the doll did indeed love you and would you find such "love" satisfying?
[private]: To answer, I must go back to why God created man in the first place.
Darcy West:You can't tell me whether YOU would be satisfied with the love of a doll you had programmed to say I love you without giving me what you believe is the history of God?
[private]: I am not God, Darcy. I can only answer by what scripture says.
Darcy West: Oh I didn't think you were God or even that you speak knowingly of him. I am just wondering if YOU would be satisfied with thelove of a doll that you had programmed to say, "I love you."
[private]: I know, but you want me to answer as God would in your mind.
Darcy West: Can you read my mind?
[private]: If I had the power to create a doll to love me, I would give it free will as God did to man.
Darcy West: Fair enough. And if that man disobeyed you, would you then curse all of his descendants?
[private]: Actually, man cursed his descendants, not God. It was man's choice.
Darcy West: Man cursed his descendants? Is man capable of bringing such a curse on his fellow man? If I say to you, "I curse you!" would those words have any real effect on your life?
[private]: Man allowed sin to enter mankind through the fruit. Again, that is what scripture says.
Darcy West: [private], who did the cursing though?
[private]: Sin is the accuser and deceiver. Not God.
Darcy West: According to scripture, didn't the words of the curse come from God himself? And surely the power of the curse did.
[private]: God told man that if he ate of the fruit he would surely die. God planted the tree, to honor man's free will. Man chose sin, and through it he cursed his descendants.
Darcy West: To think that man has the power to bring a curse on his fellow man sounds superstitious to me. Is this really what you believe?
[private]: Not in an outward way, but inwardly, we pass indwelling sin through our blood to offspring,
Darcy West: [private], really? Have scientists found it in the blood?
[private]: I simply say what scripture says.
Darcy West: You can only recite scripture? You can't think for yourself? I am asking you if you think God decided that because Adam had sinned, all of Adam's descendants would be afflicted with this blood disorder you spoke of? This contaminant? Or was God held to some standard that he had no control over?
[private]: Yes, I believe God decides all things.
Darcy West: So God decided that all of humankind would be guilty because of Adam's sin?
[private]: Yes. Because all sinned, Romans 5:12.
Darcy West: [private], you believe in eternal torment for those who fail to believe as you do, don't you?
[private]: I believe in eternal separation from God for those that are not His chosen, yes.
Darcy West: And you believe that only the elect can come to a saving knowledge of Christ?
[private]: Yes.
Darcy West: Would you approve of beating a blind man when the blind man failed to see?
[private]: Certainly not. However, in this case the man chose blindness to light.
Darcy West: If I am made without the ability to see....do I have a choice about whether or not I can see?
[private]: Darcy, those who are not elected have a will, but because they are not chosen, they have not the ability to choose God.
Darcy West: [private], exactly. So why would God endlessly torment them for not having what he alone can give them?
[private]: Mankind, in Adam already chose.
Darcy West If a teacher punished an entire class for the actions of one child and if the teacher then said, "This boy has cursed all of you because of his actions. I will now beat every child in the class and I will beat each of your children that is born and ever enters this class in the future," would that seem fair to you?
[private]: It is not my place to evaluate what is fair. I accept God's sovereignty.
Darcy West: You do not evaluate what is fair. Hmmmm. So, if the bible said that rape was good, would you believe that rape was good?
[private]: Ridiculous question.
Darcy West: If God told you to kill a child, would you do it?
[private]: I know of what you refer, but doesn't apply to saints today.
Darcy West: According to the scripture, God did command men to kill babies in the Old Testament times, so I: think it's a fair question.
[private]: He will not, so it is a moot point. We are not in Old Testament times, Darcy. You are wrongly dividing the word of truth.
Darcy West: [private], do you have a right to evaluate any of the actions of God?
[private]: No, I don't.
Darcy West: So if God told you to rape a woman, you would have no right to question that, would you? Can you think of anything more hateful than torturing someone forEVER?
[private]: I don't understand your questions, Darcy.
Darcy West: Let me rephrase. The question is: do you think it is wrong to torture someone forEVER?
[private]: It may be bad, or it may be just.
Darcy West: When would you ever think it was just or right to torment a person forever?
[private]: When God says it is. Is it just to remove punishment after justly given?
Darcy West: Isn't that exactly what you believe God is going to do with you? [private], if you made a person who had NO ability to see, why would you be angry at the person for failing to have what you alone could give him?
[private]: I am very sorry you can't understand God's ways Darcy. But you are not yet given to do so. Maybe someday you will be quickened. Until then you will continue in darkness.
Darcy West: [private], if being "quickened" means that I have to see cruelty as good, then I am glad that that will never happen to me. If being in the "light" means that I must become a thoughtless object, parroting words of praise to a sadistic monster, not because I love him but because he programmed me to say I did, then I would much prefer what you call darkness. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.